[Fim4l] LexisNexis Advance
Koren, Meshna (ELS-AMS)
M.Koren at elsevier.com
Mon Mar 15 18:14:49 CET 2021
"when no pairwise-id/eduPersonTargetedID is passed to the SP, the SP still should offer personalization based on a registered account ."
Human users tend to re-use passwords, and instead of protecting themselves behind the institutional credentials, they are sharing the password with SPs during the 'registration' and make themselves vulnerable. That's not how federated access is meant to work.
Also; as far as the user's choice goes; users don't understand what the consequences of releasing or not releasing a pesudonymous attribute are, and why should they. This system is too complicated for users to be able to make informed decisions. If you don't trust the SPs that they are not going to abuse personal data than that is what you need to address.
Kind regards,
Meshna
From: FIM4L <fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de> On Behalf Of Jiri Pavlik
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2021 17:20
To: Bernd Oberknapp <bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>
Cc: fim4l at lists.daasi.de
Subject: Re: [Fim4l] LexisNexis Advance
*** External email: use caution ***
Hi,
I prefer Elsevier's approach, personalization based on pairwise-id/eduPersonTargetedID.
Another sign in for personalisation on top of institutional sign in is adding complexity,
it leads to worse user experience IMHO.
Cheers
Jiri
On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 5:01 PM Bernd Oberknapp <bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>> wrote:
Hi,
I agree. The SP should not enforce the release of
pairwise-id/eduPersonTargetedID, and if the IdP allows to release
pairwise-id/eduPersonTargetedID the user should have the choice, so that
the attribute is only released if the user wants to use the
personalization based on that attribute. Additionally, when no
pairwise-id/eduPersonTargetedID is passed to the SP, the SP still should
offer personalization based on a registered account (as most publishers
do, Elsevier as far as I know is one of very few publishers that don't
allow this when an institutional login is used.).
Best regards,
Bernd
On 15.03.21 16:46, Jiri Pavlik wrote:
> Hi,
>
> IMHO there are users who wish to have anonymous access and there are
> also users
> who wish to have a profile, use personalisation. So a solution there
> could be let users
> decide about releasing pairwise-id (eduPersonTargetedID) using CAR.
>
> Best
> Jiri
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 4:18 PM Jos Westerbeke <jos.westerbeke at eur.nl<mailto:jos.westerbeke at eur.nl>
> <mailto:jos.westerbeke at eur.nl<mailto:jos.westerbeke at eur.nl>>> wrote:
>
> Hi Jiri, Bernd et al,
>
> thank you for this discussion. This is very meaningful for
> downplaying the FIM4L recommendations 4.A and 4.B to a more simple
> level.
>
> We now have two recommendations which you have to (unfortunately)
> choose:
>
> 4.A. Transitory Access - eduPersonTargetedID as optional would be
> fine for this.
> 4.B. Personalized Access - eduPersonTargetedID required.
> - And for 4.B the recommendation is to let it be for the SP side to
> offer a profile, voluntarily to configure by users. So that in any
> way IdP's do not have to release PII.
> (https://www.fim4l.org/?page_id=257<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fim4l.org%2F%3Fpage_id%3D257&data=04%7C01%7Cm.koren%40elsevier.com%7Cf49b5026b5154b7b0f9108d8e7ce42d5%7C9274ee3f94254109a27f9fb15c10675d%7C0%7C0%7C637514220969810667%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=Wh%2Bu9YEI%2F3sYdlaTObMsjXxNkmBwmD0taBzxqLOV9xU%3D&reserved=0>)
>
> What would we actually recommend for librarians? Wouldn't it be nice
> to have just one option? I think it is too difficult for librarians
> to choose here.
>
> Reading the discussion, we can say that we cannot recommend going
> just for 4.B. And if librarians consider switching form IP to SAML
> they are very suspicious about privacy.
>
> Can we recommend for both IdP's and SP's to go for 4.A?
>
> What about recommending 4.A and have the option for 4.B when there
> is an agreement between IdP and SP about creating profiles, anchored
> in a contract?
>
> Should we recommend a contract clausula alongside 4.B?
>
> As far as I understand, I'm aware of what Meshna says: If you opt
> for 4.A then it is simply not possible to have a profile, which is
> very annoying if not impossible for our patrons.
>
> Best,
> Jos
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* FIM4L <fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de>
> <mailto:fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de>>> on behalf of Jiri Pavlik
> <jiri.pavlik at techlib.cz<mailto:jiri.pavlik at techlib.cz> <mailto:jiri.pavlik at techlib.cz<mailto:jiri.pavlik at techlib.cz>>>
> *Sent:* 15 March 2021 14:58
> *To:* Koren, Meshna (ELS-AMS) <M.Koren at elsevier.com<mailto:M.Koren at elsevier.com>
> <mailto:M.Koren at elsevier.com<mailto:M.Koren at elsevier.com>>>
> *Cc:* fim4l at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de> <mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de>>
> <fim4l at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de> <mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de>>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fim4l] LexisNexis Advance
> Hi Meshna,
>
> thanks a lot for the comments.
>
> At Elsevier SP metadata [1] I can see:
> eduPersonEntitlement (required)
> eduPersonTargetedID (optional)
> in DFN-AAI, IDEM or Australian Access Federation.
>
> At the SP metadata in eduGAIN / UK Federation there are no requested
> attributes.
> At the SP metadata in eduID.at, SWITCHaai, InCommon, RENATER I
can see:
> eduPersonEntitlement (required)
> eduPersonTargetedID (required)
>
> It illustrates different approaches around the world how to express
> optional ePTID release
> in SP metadata and a challenge for one appropriate SP metadata in
> eduGAIN serving globally.
> To me
> eduPersonEntitlement (required)
> eduPersonTargetedID (optional)
> seems as the most appropriate.
>
> Cheers
> Jiri
>
>
> 1.
>
https://met.refeds.org/met/entity/https%253A%252F%252Fsdauth.sciencedirect.com%252F/<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmet.refeds.org%2Fmet%2Fentity%2Fhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fsdauth.sciencedirect.com%25252F%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.koren%40elsevier.com%7Cf49b5026b5154b7b0f9108d8e7ce42d5%7C9274ee3f94254109a27f9fb15c10675d%7C0%7C0%7C637514220969810667%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=b01fwSj0W%2FWoz7GW2kFiIwOfzMe5FcCiLHMaSKlpKjQ%3D&reserved=0>
>
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmet.refeds.org%2Fmet%2Fentity%2Fhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fsdauth.sciencedirect.com%25252F%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjos.westerbeke%40eur.nl%7C79db2eedf41a41cdeec208d8e7ba85c2%7C715902d6f63e4b8d929b4bb170bad492%7C0%7C0%7C637514136761630378%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HmuCXxy9%2F1bQBVkGnsrbBcRmNJP9DsiETfB4g6uP0L4%3D&reserved=0<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmet.refeds.org%2Fmet%2Fentity%2Fhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fsdauth.sciencedirect.com%25252F%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.koren%40elsevier.com%7Cf49b5026b5154b7b0f9108d8e7ce42d5%7C9274ee3f94254109a27f9fb15c10675d%7C0%7C0%7C637514220969820661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=BxhOdFBZefM0OGPHc9s6s44z3z%2BFV3fvkQE5g5ACV7U%3D&reserved=0>>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 12:01 PM Koren, Meshna (ELS-AMS)
> <M.Koren at elsevier.com<mailto:M.Koren at elsevier.com> <mailto:M.Koren at elsevier.com<mailto:M.Koren at elsevier.com>>> wrote:
>
> Please allow me to add something to this discussion. ____
>
> __ __
>
> "The university students and staff are free to use
> personalisation at Lexis Nexis,
> Elsevier, EBSCO, ProQuest services if they want to so
> eduPersonScopedAffiliation (required)
> eduPersonEntitlement (required)
> eduPersonTargetedID (optional)..."
>
> ____
>
> The students and staff can only use personalization when the IdP
> releases ePTID (or pairwiseID), otherwise they can't. I am not
> sure that this is clear from the metadata nor that the labels we
> use to describe the required attributes are very clear on what
> 'optional' means.____
>
> __ __
>
> For example, when a student accesses ScienceDirect they can read
> subscribed articles whether or not ePTID has been released for
> them, but if they want to 'create account' because they would
> like to save searches, alerts or their search history, they can
> only do that if the IdP has released a persistent identifier for
> them. Otherwise they can't, because there's nothing in their
> SAML assertions that allows us to recognize the returning
> individual. So we are working towards requiring a persistent ID.
> The personalization remains optional for the user.____
>
> __ __
>
> That may not be the same for other SPs, but it is valid for
> Elsevier. ____
>
> __ __
>
> Kind regards,____
>
> Meshna____
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> *__ __*
>
> *Meshna Koren**____*
>
>
> /Product Manager II____/
>
> */Product Management - Identity and Access/**/- /**/Research
> Products/**/____/*
>
> */__ __/*
>
> */Elsevier BV/*/____/
>
> /Radarweg 29, Amsterdam 1043 NX, The Netherlands____/
>
> /m.koren at elsevier.com<mailto:m.koren at elsevier.com> <mailto:m.koren at elsevier.com<mailto:m.koren at elsevier.com>>____/
>
> /__ __/
>
> /Federated Access - SAML, Shibboleth, Corporate SSO, OpenAthens,
> Institutional Login____/
>
> /__ __/
>
> /Elsevier Access Support Center:
>
https://service.elsevier.com/app/answers/list/c/10543/supporthub/elsevieraccess/
>
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>
> /for your questions about which access methods does Elsevier
> support, how to set them up, how do they work for users...____/
>
> /__ __/
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> *From:* FIM4L <fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de>
> <mailto:fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l-bounces at lists.daasi.de>>> *On Behalf Of *Jiri Pavlik
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 14, 2021 15:28
> *To:* Bernd Oberknapp <bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>
> <mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>>>
> *Cc:* fim4l at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de> <mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de<mailto:fim4l at lists.daasi.de>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fim4l] LexisNexis Advance____
>
> __ __
>
> **** External email: use caution ****____
>
> ____
>
> Hi Bernd,
>
> I see,
> eduPersonScopedAffiliation (required)
> eduPersonEntitlement (required)
> is working for Freiburg University and
> eduPersonScopedAffiliation (required)
> eduPersonEntitlement (required)
> eduPersonTargetedID (required)
> is not.
>
> The university students and staff are free to use
> personalisation at Lexis Nexis,
> Elsevier, EBSCO, ProQuest services if they want to so
> eduPersonScopedAffiliation (required)
> eduPersonEntitlement (required)
> eduPersonTargetedID (optional)
> is working for the University as well.
>
> Is it correct?
>
> All the best
>
> Jiri____
>
> __ __
>
> ____
>
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 2:40 PM Bernd Oberknapp
> <bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de> <mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>>>
> wrote:____
>
> Hi Jiri,
>
> On 13.03.21 09:15, Jiri Pavlik wrote:
>
> > When checking ProQuest SP for ProQuest Central
> in DFN-AAI metadata [1]
> > I can see both eduPersonEntitlement and
> eduPersonTargetedID as required
> > attributes.
>
> I assume you mean the SP
> https://shibboleth-sp.prod.proquest.com/shibboleth<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fshibboleth-sp.prod.proquest.com%2Fshibboleth&data=04%7C01%7Cm.koren%40elsevier.com%7Cf49b5026b5154b7b0f9108d8e7ce42d5%7C9274ee3f94254109a27f9fb15c10675d%7C0%7C0%7C637514220969830664%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=PQnwsk6KiMW%2BumNIwRo3PGEplOW5v7sOeUJM7JxdnKY%3D&reserved=0>
>
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> That's obviously
> wrong, both eduPersonScopedAffiliation and
> eduPersonEntitlement are
> supported for authorization, but as far as I can
> tell you don't have to
> use them, and eduPersonTargetedID isn't required.
>
> > Is it safe to assume that if there is
> personalisation capability at a
> > library service then all German universities,
> libraries are fine with
> > releasing eduPersonTargetedID for recognising
> returning users and
> > eduPersonEntitlement, eduPersonScopedAffiliation
> for authorisation?
>
> No. I can't speak for other IdPs, but in my opinion
> that approach would
> be wrong, users by default should be able to use
> services anonymously,
> without being recognized as a returning user. Based
> on what I can see in
> the admin tools, only a very small percentage of our
> users actually uses
> the personalization features, so releasing
> eduPersonTargetedID by
> default just for personalization isn't an option. If
> publishers would
> force us to send an eduPersonTargetedID just for
> personalization I would
> consider dropping Shibboleth for those publishers
> and using our EZproxy
> instead.
>
> Best regards,
> Bernd
>
> --
> Bernd Oberknapp
> Gesamtleitung ReDI
>
> Albert-Ludwigs-Universität Freiburg
> Universitätsbibliothek
> Platz der Universität 2 | Postfach 1629
> D-79098 Freiburg | D-79016 Freiburg
>
> Telefon: +49 761 203-3852
> Telefax: +49 761 203-3987
> E-Mail: bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>
> <mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>>
> Internet: www.ub.uni-freiburg.de<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ub.uni-freiburg.de%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.koren%40elsevier.com%7Cf49b5026b5154b7b0f9108d8e7ce42d5%7C9274ee3f94254109a27f9fb15c10675d%7C0%7C0%7C637514220969840659%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=5fMzOWDj9wKhMpzJd4ESV15b9m46mWJKup2QHh9xJ1s%3D&reserved=0>
>
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>
>
>
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>
--
Bernd Oberknapp
Gesamtleitung ReDI
Albert-Ludwigs-Universität Freiburg
Universitätsbibliothek
Platz der Universität 2 | Postfach 1629
D-79098 Freiburg | D-79016 Freiburg
Telefon: +49 761 203-3852
Telefax: +49 761 203-3987
E-Mail: bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de<mailto:bo at ub.uni-freiburg.de>
Internet: www.ub.uni-freiburg.de<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ub.uni-freiburg.de%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.koren%40elsevier.com%7Cf49b5026b5154b7b0f9108d8e7ce42d5%7C9274ee3f94254109a27f9fb15c10675d%7C0%7C0%7C637514220969850644%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=WClmQBfYEhDbIBxyHejIEXkCnSKtlgDqMKZNF19ITME%3D&reserved=0>
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